Back Protectors, Testing, and CE Standards

Velocity, when do you anticipate having your website online with pictures? It seems to me that you'd make that a priority before coming to a public forum to tell us all how great your product is. I'm in the market for my first back protector, so I have a real interest here. Please keep us posted.


*Also*, at the very least you need to make sure that you at least spell words correctly on your website. Otherwise it makes the whole page look unprofessional.

Velocity, I very much appreciate your offer, and may wish to take you up on it. However, my interest is truly in being provided with as much information as possible, for others and myself to make a quality decision when we are in the position of actually purchasing equipment.

So far, you have given us bits and pieces, but I'd really like to hear more about your product. I'd love to see some "ready for viewing" pics, the CE documentation that you said you could provide, and any other information about the construction and performance of your equipment.

I have to admit, from the pics on Ebay, it looks like just another knock-off of the Dainese Safety Jacket. So, with that in mind, please fill us in on how you were able to achieve the Level 2 rating, etc., and other ways that your product sets itself apart. I realize your offering price is much lower and the automatic assumption is that it would be due to lower quality construciton or materials. I'm hoping you can let us know about the overall construction and material choices, warranty, etc.

The safety testing means a lot, and with a lower price, we can accept certain compromises, so please give us your honest assessment.

License, I found some of your requests to be somewhat odd.

First, I have offered you a free sample so you can see first hand what my product entails including CE certification labels, quality fit and finish, etc.

I started on this endeavor over a year ago to provide quality products at affordable prices. I am not in a position to give away the secrets I have worked so hard to achieve. As far as performance I have already listed this information. Our body armor (back protector) has passed the EN1621-2 level 2 requirement and the labels reiterate this.

As far as the pic's and the "look a like" Dainese. I am unsure how this would matter in terms of protection. We have achieved our certification not based on looks but actual Satra certification. Our body armor is different than the rest by simply being affordable and at the same time matching the current industry standard for "high performance" body armor. There are other differences, but that's why I want to send you a sample, so you can see them for yourself.

" I realize your offering price is much lower and the automatic assumption is that it would be due to lower quality construction or materials. I'm hoping you can let us know about the overall construction and material choices, warranty, etc."

If we were able to achieve the same rating as other manufacturers, or better, I don't understand why one would assume our construction or material choices are inferior in any way. We're cheaper because we're small. The rest of the body armor manufacturers spend all of their money on advertising, riders, etc. It's really that simple.

"The safety testing means a lot, and with a lower price, we can accept certain compromises, so please give us your honest assessment. "

There are no comprises, see for yourself.....Unless of course, not having factory riders or bundles of magazine ad's is considered a compromise. If that's the case then we are undoubtedly compromising....




I also appreciate the fact everyone would like to see photos and a website that is polished. We're getting there. Our website will be up for body armor sales within the week. The rest of our products are going to be delayed, unfortunately. Starting a small business "out of pocket" is never easy and sometimes there are sacrifices. Our product, however, WILL NOT be sacrificed....

Support@highvelocitygear.com

Helimot has an interesting theory behind their TLV protector, but makes no claims of protection (Its an American market product). I have heard stories of the owner of Helimot performing "real world" tests with a hammer for skeptics. I’m sorry, I'd rather have repeatable measurements than seat-of my-pants guesses at what crash forces are going to feel like or infomercial-styled demonstrations. Dramatic exhibitions should be saved for differentiating the meaning of the data, rather than basing your presumptions of efficacy on them. A non-certified product could be the best performer available, but without proper testing data we can’t take that chance, not when proven options are known and available.

Easy there, sparky. Your ignorance is showing through here. Helimot has done EXTENSIVE research in the development of this back protector. Just because it doesn't have the CE mark, does NOT mean you should pass it by. MOST back protectors produced in the US do NOT have the CE mark, in fact.

Something you didn't mention is that Helimot also sells the Held back protector (CE mark present, European company), or should I say USED to sell it. The don't carry Held any longer because their quality has declined dramatically over the last several years. I have a Held protector that I purchased years ago and have tested it thoroughly with very good results. My most recent test was a hi-side that flung me over the bike and had me land squarely on my back. Not a bad test IMO.

Now, as I said, Helimot decided to develop their own protectors due to the fact that one of their producers was cutting corners. They spent years developing their back protector and it's worn by SEVERAL pro racers (feel free to check their website for info). Also, I have many friends who have that protector and have crashed on it with better results than Dainese, Knox, Tecknic and others. It's about the best back protector you can buy, and it's CUSTOM FIT! How many places will custom fit your protection for you? It's a bit bulky, but after it warms up, you hardly even notice it's there.

One last thing, that demonstration you refer to as an "infomercial" demo is VERY effective. He puts his product against several others. Sure he hits it with a hammer, but then he lets whoever is getting the demo hit it, and let me tell you, amazing what you see. Maybe you should give them a call and talk with them about that protector. Ask for Helmut, he's one of the owners and he's also the developer.

For Trav, the Johnson leather's composite armor was the WORST. It's very flexible armor and even feels a little "squishy" but when an impact is presented to it, it transfers that impact directly to the recipient, not dispurse it. It's good for resisting abrasive, but if it's under leather, that's a bit redundant. The armor in my suit is made to dispurse the impact.

I'm sure by now you're thinking that I'm partial to helimot, and you're 100% right. They happen to be friends of mine. That didn't happen until AFTER I purchased my suit, 2 pairs of gloves and 2 back protectors (one Held, one Helimot) from them though. They're actually friends to motorcyclists everywhere. If you're ever in San Jose, CA, go to their shop. Friendliest shop I've ever been in.

Eli

We shouldn't have to know the onwer, or feel confident in an overly dramatic, yet dataless and unreliable test to provide us with enough information to make that decision. If Helimot cared, they would provide us with meaningful data, and voluntarily seek formal outside approval.The "kick me in the jimmy" routine is a laughable, cheap stunt.

Fortunately your biased and ignorant statements about the Johnson Leather(I assume you are talking about the Forcefield Back, not sure what you mean by "composite") have been proven to be absolutely wrong by actual verified proof.

The whole Helimot story all to closely resembles the Bohn story. If Helimot wants to set themselves apart, they have to do more than tell us they are great and woo us with a truly meaningless exhibition. Friends and racer's interpretations of forces acting on their body is no more relevant than any other guesswork that doesn't involve measured data. Years of development are not results-based statements either. I frankly could care less how much time it takes someone to produce a worhty product, time spent doesn't say anything about the product's effectiveness.

Many European companies have voluntarily submitted for CE approval even before it was mandatory. If any of these American companies believe the CE tests are not valid or they have better information, then they should only be willing to impart that openly to the public and be willing to create or assist in a thrid-party testing procedure. That is the level of commitment the entire motorcycle clothing industry should be holding themselves to.

Friends perform the right actions, no matter how their intention is perceived. We should not have to justify safety-related purchases with speculation and emotional attatchments.

We shouldn't have to know the onwer, or feel confident in an overly dramatic, yet dataless and unreliable test to provide us with enough information to make that decision. If Helimot cared, they would provide us with meaningful data, and voluntarily seek formal outside approval.The "kick me in the jimmy" routine is a laughable, cheap stunt.

Well, we look at things differently, apparently. I think it's a BENEFIT to be able to know the owner personally. I also think it's a benefit that for anyone who does NOT know the owner, all they have to do is call Helimot and they'll definitely have the opportunity to talk to them. Personally I don't rely on any company to hold my hand through the evaluation of their product, particularly on the internet. I'm smart enough to do my own research and find out what's going to work best for me. I was just fortunate enough to live 10 minutes away from Helimot. In any case (to keep shooting holes in your argument against them) if you really want the scoop on their product, all you have to do is call them and request it, just like with ANY other company. They have more info on each of their products than you'll find at any of the other manufacturers. They only thing they're guilty of is not having time to refine their webpage. And unfortunately for someone who doesn't have the drive to do anything other than surf the web for information, it open them up for criticism and slander.

Fortunately your biased and ignorant statements about the Johnson Leather(I assume you are talking about the Forcefield Back, not sure what you mean by "composite") have been proven to be absolutely wrong by actual verified proof.

If you don't know what I mean by "composite" you may not know as much about these folks as you think you do. I'm not saying they make a bad product, I haven't tested it myself. BUT what I will say is that certainly do NOT claim to cater to sportbikers as the majority of their business. They cater to cruisers considerably more than they do to us. I'd hope you agree that we need different levels of protection than they do, strictly due to riding styles. Oh yeah, is their back protector CE certified???

Friends and racer's interpretations of forces acting on their body is no more relevant than any other guesswork that doesn't involve measured data. Years of development are not results-based statements either. I frankly could care less how much time it takes someone to produce a worhty product, time spent doesn't say anything about the product's effectiveness.

Re-read my previous post. I've already adressed this drivel in there. Real-world both street and race "tests" are performed on this protector regularly. And I agree that strictly stating that it took years to develop a product doesn't say anything about, but to say that it took years to develop a product because they wanted to make SURE it was superior and offered more protection than anything else out there does say something significant.

Many European companies have voluntarily submitted for CE approval even before it was mandatory. If any of these American companies believe the CE tests are not valid or they have better information, then they should only be willing to impart that openly to the public and be willing to create or assist in a thrid-party testing procedure. That is the level of commitment the entire motorcycle clothing industry should be holding themselves to.

Which European companies did that? None that I know of. They're REQUIRED to do it now, but American companies aren't required to do that unless they sell into Europe. I've got news for you, none of the American companies will spend all that money on achieving the CE mark simply because it's a good faith measure. It's just too expensive to make it a good business decision. Also, something to chew on, many of the back protectors from Euro companies that sell into the US don't have the CE mark either. I don't remember seeing a big CE on the Dainese protectors we import. Why? Because they don't need it and if it were there, they'd probably have to raise the price to offset their cost of getting that mark on all models.

We should not have to justify safety-related purchases with speculation and emotional attatchments.

*sigh* Re-read my previous post, again. I had no emotional attachment before I purchased my suit. I went to them because they are the best, hands down. I don't like to see a GREAT small company slandered by someone who has never even dealt with them. Before you pass judgment on them, please contact them and see if they're really as much of a "flash in the pan" as you think they are. I think you'll find that their reputation has already been established, which really makes our argument moot.

Of course, we much each buy whichever equipment makes us feel most comfortable and confident. I happen to prefer to buy what people who put it to use a WHOLE lot more than I do recommend. In this case, Helimot gets my money.

Eli

You're really missing the point of what is being said here, mostly because you are so heavily wrapped-up in defending your friend's honor.

It is obvious you have not compared the information in my post about the various models of protectors. The majority of what is being critiqued is the level of high-quality information that somebody across the continent has available to them without having to call or know the owner.

My entire critique of Heleimot is the lack of evidence espoused in their literature on their website. Slander is hardly the term for what I have pointed-out. If they have more, then they should put more thought into their website, because I can't drive down the street to hear their sales pitch. If there website doesn't reveal all of their accomplishments or other important data that allows me to make a quality decision aoblut their prodcut, it is nobody's fault but theirs.

Knox, T-Pro, and BKS have all sought approval for their protectors before a specific standard for back protectors even exiested, and in the case of BKS, they submit an entire suit for CE certification. Johnson Leather carries two back protectors that are CE certified(as stated in the first post). I nfact, the Forcefield version is one of the highest-perfroming protectors in the CE tests. So regardless of who they cater to with their leather products, their armor speaks for iteself. And they all provide much more meaningful info about their products than any other manufacturers as well. This definitely gives you an idea about who is taking your safety seriously and who is not.

If a company is serious about your protection, why wouldn't they seek meaningful approval, or show reliable, scientific evidence why their product is "superior". Keeping us guessing does nothing to inspire confidence in a product. It forces us to use less reliable mehtods for making a decision.

I would have to agree with License on this particular subject. Without getting into a flame war I'll just say that getting a CE approval isn't something that will put a huge price tag on a product. Especially in the case Dainese where thay are selling body armor with an inferior CE mark (backspace 1,2 and 3). If you notice their newest body armor is rated to level 2 of EN 1621-2, obviously obtaining such a rating is important regardless of who you are.

I am somewhat surprised that License is so unwilling to try my armor out, especially considering how much time he has invested in the above post.

Oh, well. Are there any board moderators interested in my offer????

I'll take you up on your offer. I'll be more than happy to look it over and compare it to my existing armor. I'll write up a testimonial for you.

If you're interested in that, PM me.

Eli

bump* so wtf happened? :WTF its like a backprotector hanger... what happens next?

millions of backs depends on your testimony :thumbsup