MSF: Motorcycle Rider Training +Welcome to the Ride video

[DealsGapR6]

Unfortunately the MSF course I took in FL was taught by people that didn't know how to ride themselves. Still, the class offers some good things to the average rider even if the instructors just read directly out of the book. One thing to keep in mind though, is that some of the things you will learn in the MSF course are incorrect for sportbikes or other bikes outside of the cruiser genre. This is particularly true if you are interested in performance riding. The problem is the material is written with no accounting for the varying capabilities of different genres of bikes. You don't stop a sportbike the same way you stop a cruiser, for example. After getting the basics down it would be a great idea to take a race school to clear up the misinformation you may get during the MSF course if you are the type that aspires to race or become a proficient sport rider. But in general I'm a fan of the course and it can do some great things for most people.

[Bugman]

What part of the braking curriculum did you disagree with?

Could you please give other examples of what you determined to be "incorrect".

[DealsGapR6]

It's been a long time so I can't tell you everything point by point, but I remember doing the test on a smaller sport standard that had pretty good brakes. Good enough that I could lift the rear wheel with front brake application, which means 100% stopping power was achieved through the front brake alone rather than with both as it would be on a cruiser or another less capable bike. I was counted off and told to redo the short stopping excercise because I didn't use the rear brake, regardless of the fact that I stopped shorter than when I did it with both.

I also remember being taught to do all braking in a straight line, which is contradictory to what you would do in a performance application. Something like this I don't expect them to teach as it's not a performance school, but it is something that will need to be relearned by some people. Perhaps a small segment on trail braking and how it will effect the bike in an exercise would be a good addition even for the average rider in case of an emergency situation. I also remember an absence of body position materials in my particular class. I remember being told to keep my ass in the center of the seat and to keep my inside knee tucked in, which is somewhat understandable considering the focus of the course, but the very basics of center of gravity and the effects on cornering should be explained to everyone, even if the class is full of Harley riders. In my case the instructors rode their personal sportbikes leaning away from the direction of the corners like they were on dirt bikes, so I'm sure the shortcomings of the teachers had a large effect on the quality of my particular class, but had I not been taught basic sportbike techniques before taking that class I would have had some substantial relearning to do later on. Making some basic distictions on the differences in techniques for different styles of bikes would have greatly improved the quality of the class.

[Bugman]

Sad day when you have to criticize MSF for not teaching performance riding... get real asshole.

[DealsGapR6]

Originally Posted by Bugman

Sad day when you have to criticize MSF for not teaching performance riding... get real asshole.

I don't know why I'm going to dignify a comment like this with a response, but here we go anyways...

I specifically said I don't expect the MSF to teach performance riding. Apparently you missed that part. What I do expect the MSF to teach is the correct way to control all bikes so everyone can have the best shot at a safe ride. If you group everyone under the same generic instruction then you are going to be shortchanging some group of riders on many points. Taking all performance riding out of the equation, you do not operate a 900lb Harley with no brakes or agility the same way you operate an R6. Sorry, you just don't. If you are going to offer bikes from different genres with different capabilities in your stable of test bikes then don't expect them to be ridden the same. And then to try to reteach someone who is displaying correct riding technique to fit the generic curriculum shows a real lack of understanding from the instructors themselves.

Having someone negotiate a course the way the diagram shows in your book and passing them doesn't get the job done. If you want people to be safe riders they need to understand why one thing is done over another way and under what circumstances. If I'm going to stop short of the car that just pulled out in front of me or turn the bike for all I can to avoid that road hazard, I need to know the optimal way to do it unless I plan to never leave the comfort of the MSF cone course. Trail braking is something most people won't even hear about until they take a race school, but why? The MSF will tell you to brake in a straight line which is great advice under normal conditions, but what about when Joe Motorcyclist is out for a ride and runs into a scenario where his only option is to brake while cornering? He took the MSF and all he knows is "don't". A better MSF might have shown him in an exercise how the bike will react if he brakes while leaning. Joe has been playing around with that technique a little since he heard about it in the MSF, and he was able to use that knowledge to avoid a crash.

The less a rider understands about how to control a bike, the more likely they are to get hurt or hurt someone else. Laying the foundation for a well rounded skillset for all riders should be the ultimate goal, and with minor changes to the course they could be much closer to achieving that.

[Bugman]

You have no legitimate points.

MSF DOES teach students how to brake or stop while in a curve. Did you skip that day? Page 37 of the basic rider course sixth edition Dec 2005. Did you read it or just throw it away because you already knew what you wanted to know, pro?

MSF does not teach students not to brake while cornering. That's total bullshit. Do you need me to scan the pages for you?

The instructors nor the guide teach you to lean away from turns... you pulled that out of your ass. Again, do you want quotes or scans from the guide.

All of the bikes at the MSF course that I attended were 250's and had very similar handling characteristics. Take the Advanced rider course if you want to use something different.

My opinion is that you went into the MSF with a bad attitude. You think that you're above and beyond a basic rider course and therefor you spent your time looking for shortcomings rather than listening and understanding that the curriculum is a basic foundation that needs to be build upon with experience and further instruction. Your ego got the best of you.

I would advise you to re-take the MSF because you obviously missed quite a bit.

[DealsGapR6]

Originally Posted by Bugman

MSF DOES teach students how to brake or stop while in a curve. Did you skip that day?

That didn't happen in my class. In fact, the opposite was taught. Whether or not it was supposed to, I can't say.

Originally Posted by Bugman

The instructors nor the guide teach you to lean away from turns... you pulled that out of your ass.

If you would slow down and take the time to comprehend what I say we may get somewhere. What I stated was that the instructors in my particular class rode in that manner. I rode with their group of buddies once before taking the class and none of them had the first clue how to ride. Because I had such poor teachers I may not have gotten the course as it was intended to be taught, but I can only base my opinions off of my own experience with the class.

Originally Posted by Bugman

All of the bikes at the MSF course that I attended were 250's and had very similar handling characteristics. Take the Advanced rider course if you want to use something different.

The bike I rode was the only sporty bike in the group. They had an enduro style bike and several small cruisers. I have no complaints about the choice of bikes there at all, and I think it's good that they try to make different styles of bikes available. I don't see what you're getting at here.

Originally Posted by Bugman

My opinion is that you went into the MSF with a bad attitude. You think that you're above and beyond a basic rider course and therefor you spent your time looking for shortcomings rather than listening and understanding that the curriculum is a basic foundation that needs to be build upon with experience and further instruction. Your ego got the best of you.

I went into the MSF course with the desire to make the best out of it since it was a requirement to obtain an endorsement in FL. I think it's a great idea for everyone to sit through it, because there are some good things to be learned. I think most of my problems with the course stem from the poor instructors that taught my class, but I would like to see the curriculum a little less generic with some distinctions made between different techniques for different styles of bikes. Really, if they eliminated the MSF course and forced the general public to go through the IPTM course people would be much better off. That is a far more valuable course with some great information that is missing from (and some of it contradictory to) the MSF. Its much more difficult material, but it would definitely produce riders with real skills for the real world.

I don't know why you jumped on the immediate defensive and started throwing out insults when I made a few simple observations. It's obvious to me you're not going to make any attempt to understand my point of view, and will continue to respond based on emotion instead of logic. That being the case I'll make this my last post on the topic.

[nd9tec51]

Originally Posted by lesanne

I have taken this class and really learned a lot and actually this is how I learned to ride a bike. I am wanting to take a corning class, but have no idea on any place that offers them. Does anyone know of any. I am in NC if that helps. Thanks!

have you found out anything I would like to take one too.

[sixxer_noob]

i had a little (very little) bit of dirt bike riding experience and then i took the class. I'm really glad i took it, learned a lot from it. I recommend it to everyone that talks to me about bikes. Oh yah and i would like to take a class on cornering as well. Some people say to go to a track day, so maybe i'll try that. hopefully they have a class for beginners.

[ckidd]

morning...I just took it in New Hampshire, $110.00...I highly recommend it!